{"id":321,"date":"2024-08-21T20:03:42","date_gmt":"2024-08-21T20:03:42","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/europaskolos.lt\/index.php\/2024\/08\/21\/atm-aswath-damodaran-on-the-lifecycles-of-companies\/"},"modified":"2024-08-21T20:03:42","modified_gmt":"2024-08-21T20:03:42","slug":"atm-aswath-damodaran-on-the-lifecycles-of-companies","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/europaskolos.lt\/index.php\/2024\/08\/21\/atm-aswath-damodaran-on-the-lifecycles-of-companies\/","title":{"rendered":"ATM: Aswath Damodaran on the LifeCycles of Companies"},"content":{"rendered":"<p> <br \/>\n<\/p>\n<div>\n<p><iframe class=\"lazy lazy-hidden\" style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" data-lazy-type=\"iframe\" data-src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/5SwMwpfxiZreOUxOxUYNoO?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><noscript><iframe loading=\"lazy\" style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/5SwMwpfxiZreOUxOxUYNoO?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/noscript><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/at-the-money-learning-lifecycles-of-companies\/id730188152?i=1000666102673\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">At The Money: At the Money: Learning Lifecycles of Companies<\/a>. (August 21, 2024)<\/p>\n<p>The Magnificent Seven, the Nifty Fifty, FAANG: Each of these were popular groups of companies investors erroneously believed they could \u201cSet &amp; Forget,\u201d put them away forever, and you\u2019re set for life. But as history informs us, the list of once-great companies that dominated their eras and then declined is long.<\/p>\n<p>Full <a href=\"https:\/\/ritholtz.com\/2024\/08\/atm-lifecycles-of-companies\/#more-333340\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">transcript below<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">~~~<\/p>\n<p>About this week\u2019s guest:<\/p>\n<p>Professor Aswath Damodaran of NYU Stern School of Business is known as the Dean of Valuation. His newest book, \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/exec\/obidos\/ASIN\/0593545060\/thebigpictu09-20\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em>The Corporate Life Cycle: Business Investment and Management Implications<\/em><\/a>\u201d is out today.<\/p>\n<p>For more info, see:<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/pages.stern.nyu.edu\/~adamodar\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Professional Bio<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/aswathdamodaran.blogspot.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Blog: Musings on Markets<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/ritholtz.com\/2023\/04\/aswath-damodaran\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Masters in Business<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/aswathdamodaran\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">LinkedIn<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/x.com\/AswathDamodaran\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Twitter<\/a><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">~~~<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Find all of the previous <em>At the Money<\/em> <a href=\"https:\/\/ritholtz.com\/category\/podcast\/atm\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">episodes here<\/a>, and in the MiB feed on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/masters-in-business\/id730188152\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Apple Podcasts<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLe4PRejZgr0O7QcmQBElzBauNakxrSZre\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">YouTube<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/5LGxKlY6fzXS3tGsjB23Cb\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Spotify<\/a>, and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.bloomberg.com\/podcasts\/series\/master-in-business\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Bloomberg<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><iframe class=\"lazy lazy-hidden\" style=\"width: 100%; max-width: 660px; overflow: hidden; border-radius: 10px;\" data-lazy-type=\"iframe\" data-src=\"https:\/\/embed.podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/at-the-money-learning-lifecycles-of-companies\/id730188152?i=1000666102673\" height=\"175\" frameborder=\"0\" sandbox=\"allow-forms allow-popups allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-storage-access-by-user-activation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><noscript><iframe style=\"width: 100%; max-width: 660px; overflow: hidden; border-radius: 10px;\" src=\"https:\/\/embed.podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/at-the-money-learning-lifecycles-of-companies\/id730188152?i=1000666102673\" height=\"175\" frameborder=\"0\" sandbox=\"allow-forms allow-popups allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-storage-access-by-user-activation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation\"><\/iframe><\/noscript><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>TRANSCRIPT<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>The Magnificent Seven, the Nifty Fifty, Fang Stocks. These describe those must-own, \u201cSet &amp; Forget\u201d companies that absolutely have to be in your portfolio if you want to keep up. Buy them, own them, put them away forever, and you\u2019re set for life.<\/p>\n<p>Or are you? The list of once-great companies that dominated their eras is long: Sears, Woolworth, AT&amp;T, General Motors, Worldcom. Remember market darling General Electric? It dominated the 1990s, it\u2019s now a fraction of its former glory.<\/p>\n<p>These stocks are not one offs. They\u2019re the normal fate of all companies. I\u2019m Barry Ritholtz, and on today\u2019s edition of At The Money, we\u2019re going to explain what you need to understand: All companies go through a normal life cycle.<\/p>\n<p>To help us unpack all of this and what it means for your portfolio, let\u2019s bring in Professor Aswath Damodaran of NYU Stern School of Business. He has written numerous books on valuation and finance. His newest book is out this month, \u201cThe Corporate Life Cycle,\u201d Business Investment and Management Implications.<\/p>\n<p>So Professor, let\u2019s start with your basic premise. Tell us about the concept of corporate life cycles and how they\u2019re similar to human life cycles and go through specific stages of growth and decline.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Aswath Damodaran<\/strong>: Let\u2019s start with the similarities. I mean, aging brings its benefits and its costs,\u00a0 right? The benefits of aging is I now can get the senior discount at Denny\u2019s on the pot roast.<\/p>\n<p>Now, So that\u2019s a minor benefit, but also brings the benefit of more financial security. You\u2019re not responding. I mean, you don\u2019t have the responsibilities you\u2019d had when you\u2019re younger, but it does come with constraints. I can\u2019t jump out of bed anymore. So aging comes with pluses and minuses. And when I think about businesses, I think about in the same way.<\/p>\n<p>A very young, a startup is like a baby, needs constant care and attention and capital. A young company is like a toddler, a very young company. You age, you become a corporate teenager, which means you have lots of potential, but you put it at risk every day. And then you move through the cycle just like a human being does.<\/p>\n<p>And just like human beings, companies fight aging. They want to be young again. And you know what?\u00a0 There\u2019s an ecosystem out there that is designed to tell companies they can be young again. Consultants, bankers, selling them products saying you can be young again.\u00a0 \u00a0<em>I think more money is wasted by companies not acting their age than any other single action that companies take<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s at the core of how I think about corporate life cycles. You have an age at that age.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Barry Ritholtz<\/strong>: That\u2019s really fascinating. I love the, the five specific stages of that corporate life cycle. You describe startup, growth, mature growth, mature decline, and distress. Tell us a little bit about the distinct features of each of those stages.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Aswath Damodaran<\/strong>: The challenge you face when you\u2019re a young company is survival. I mean, two thirds of startups don\u2019t make it to year two. Forget about year five, year ten. So as a startup, you don\u2019t have a business yet. You\u2019ve got a great idea, and most of these great ideas just crash and burn. They never make it to the business stage.<\/p>\n<p>So that stage, you need somebody who\u2019s an idea person who can come up with this great idea, convince employees, convince consumers that the idea can be converted to a product.\u00a0 <em>It\u2019s all about story. You\u2019re telling a story<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>The second stage, you\u2019re building a business. Very different skill set, right? Supply chains. You\u2019ve got to manufacture your product. You\u2019ve got to get it out there.\u00a0 Third stage, you\u2019re now an established business model. You\u2019re asking, can I scale this up? Remember, most companies can\u2019t scale up. They hit a ceiling and then they stop. Some companies are special.\u00a0 They\u2019re able to keep growing even as they get bigger.<\/p>\n<p>You mentioned the Fangam, the Mag 7, and if you look at what they share in common is they were able to grow even as they got bigger. That\u2019s what made them special.<\/p>\n<p>And then you become middle aged, a mature company, you\u2019re playing defense. Why? Because everybody\u2019s coming after your market. You could argue that even among the Mag 7, Apple is playing more defense than offense. They have the smartphone. It\u2019s at 75 percent of their value. They\u2019ve got to protect that smartphone business.<\/p>\n<p>Then you\u2019re going to decline.\u00a0 And companies don\u2019t like this. Managers don\u2019t like it. It will bring decline. You\u2019re just managing your business as it gets smaller. It\u2019s not your fault. It\u2019s not because you\u2019re a bad manager, but because your business has started shrinking.<\/p>\n<p>So at each stage, the skill sets you need, the mindset you need, the challenges you face will be different. And that\u2019s why you often have to change management as you go through the life cycle.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Barry Ritholtz<\/strong>: So let\u2019s talk about those transition points between each of those stages. They seem to be particularly dangerous for companies that don\u2019t adapt, at least don\u2019t adapt well to that next stage. Tell us about those transition points.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Aswath Damodaran<\/strong>: Transition points are painful. I mean, they\u2019re painful for humans. They\u2019re painful for companies. The transition point for an idea company becoming a young company is coming up with a business model.\u00a0 Doesn\u2019t happen overnight. You got to try three or four or five before one works.<\/p>\n<p>The transition point for a young company becoming a growth company is what I call a bar mitzvah moment. Because when you\u2019re a young company, companies cut you slack. You know, investors cut you slack. They let you grow. You can talk about the number of users and the number of subscribers you have, and they push up your value. But there will be a point where those investors are going to turn to and say, how are you going to make money?<\/p>\n<p>You know, how many young companies are not ready for that question? I mean, that\u2019s what to me separated Facebook from Twitter.\u00a0 Facebook, whatever you think about Mark Zuckerberg, was ready for that question when it was asked. It had a model. It could tell you how it met. \u00a0Twitter\u2019s never quite figured out how to make money.\u00a0 And it\u2019s not a young company anymore. It failed its bar mitzvah moment because it wasn\u2019t ready for that question.<\/p>\n<p>So when I think about life cycles, I think about transition moments and good managers are ready for the next transition moment. They\u2019re not caught by surprise, but it\u2019s not easy to do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Barry Ritholtz<\/strong>: Do these life cycle stages vary across different industries, or is it pretty much the same for all companies?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Aswath Damodaran<\/strong>: Oh, there, there, and this is where corporate life cycles and human life cycles are different. A corporate life cycle can vary dramatically in terms of duration. The oldest, you know, company in history was a company called Kongo Gumi. I\u2019m sure you know, I don\u2019t know whether you\u2019ve heard of it. It\u2019s a Japanese business that was started in 571 AD. It lasted 1500 years. And all it did was Build Japanese shrines. That was its core business.<\/p>\n<p>It stayed, stayed alive for 1500 years. Why? Because it stayed small. It was family run. There was a succession plan and it never got distracted.<\/p>\n<p>If you look across publicly traded companies now, there are some companies to become an established company, you have to spend decades in the wilderness. I mean, you mentioned GE and GM. Think of how long it took those companies to go from being startups to being established companies. Because they had to build plants and factories.<\/p>\n<p>In contrast, we think about, think of a company like Yahoo founded in 1992.\u00a0 Becomes a hundred billion dollar company in 1999. So what took Ford seven decades to do, Yahoo did in seven years.<\/p>\n<p>But here\u2019s the catch. It took Yahoo only seven years to get to the top. They stayed at the top for exactly four years. You can date their fall to when Google entered the market. And think of how quickly Yahoo disappeared.<\/p>\n<p>So the capital intensity of your business matters. Your business strategy matters. And one of the things I think we\u2019ve kind of encouraged and pushed in the 21st century, and I\u2019m not sure if it\u2019s a good thing or a bad thing, is we\u2019ve designed business models that can scale up quickly with very little capital.<\/p>\n<p>Think Uber, think Airbnb, intermediary businesses. But the challenge with these businesses is it\u2019s going to be very difficult for them to stay at the top for long. And when they go into decline, it\u2019s going to be precipitous.<\/p>\n<p><em>I think that changes the way we think about the corporate life cycle of the 21st century company versus the 20th century company.<\/em><\/p>\n<p>And I\u2019m afraid business schools are not ready. All of what we teach in business schools is for the 20th century company. And the 21st century company might have a much shorter life cycle and it will require a very different set of business strategies and decision making processes than the 20th century companies.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Barry Ritholtz<\/strong>: So let\u2019s talk about some of those decision making processes. If I\u2019m an investor looking at companies in different life cycle stages, will that affect the type of valuation technique I should bring to analyzing that company?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Aswath Damodaran<\/strong>: It\u2019s not so much evaluation technique, but the estimation processes are going to vary.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, let\u2019s take an example. Let\u2019s suppose you\u2019re valuing Coca Cola.\u00a0 You have the benefit of a hundred years of history. You know their business model. You can draw on just data and extrapolate. You could be just a pure number cruncher. It\u2019s all about projecting the numbers out, and you\u2019re going to be okay.<\/p>\n<p>But if I came to you with Zoom or Peloton or Palantir, and I asked you to value now, there\u2019s not a whole lot of historical data you can pull on, and that historical data is not that reliable. So the difference, I think, is you have fewer crutches when you value young companies.<\/p>\n<p><em>You have less to draw on and that\u2019s going to make you uncomfortable. <\/em><\/p>\n<p>And you got to be willing to live with that discomfort and make your best estimates.<\/p>\n<p>One of my concerns when I have students in my class is they\u2019re so concerned about getting things right. So how do I know I\u2019m right? And I tell them, you\u2019re definitely going to be wrong, accept it and move on. With young companies, you have to accept the premise that the numbers you\u2019re going to come up with are going to be estimates that are going to be wrong. And you\u2019re going to be willing to say I was wrong and revisit those estimates.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s a mindset shift that some people can make, and some people have trouble with. They\u2019re so caught up in being right, they can never admit they\u2019re wrong.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Barry Ritholtz<\/strong>: So let\u2019s talk about different investment strategies and philosophies like growth or value investing.\u00a0 How do these align with different life cycle stages? I would imagine a young startup might be more attractive to a growth investor, and a mature company might be more attracted to a value investor.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Aswath Damodaran<\/strong>: We self select, right? We think about growth investing is including venture capital at one extreme to, you know, the Magellan\u2019s of the world.<\/p>\n<p>We buy high growth companies, and growth companies tend to be focused in on the younger stage companies. You know, value investing tends to be focused on more mature and declining companies.\u00a0 That\u2019s okay, as long as you recognize that, because what it will do is create portfolios that are kind of loaded up with those kinds of companies.<\/p>\n<p>Think about one of Warren Buffett\u2019s laments is that he never invested in technology companies early in the cycle until Apple came along. If you looked at Berkshire Hathaway\u2019s investments, they tend to be in mature companies.<\/p>\n<p>But that shouldn\u2019t be a lament. The approach that value investors, at least old time value investors took, almost self-selected those companies. It would have been impossible for you to buy a young growth company because you are so caught up in buying stocks with low PE ratios, or lots of book value, lots of cash, that you essentially missed those companies because you were designed to miss them.<\/p>\n<p>So I think as long as people recognize that your investment philosophy will lead you to kind of cluster in one section of the life cycle \u2013 which will create risks and dangers for your portfolio. I think you\u2019re okay. But I think that people who tend to be blind to that often miss the risks that come with their investment philosophy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Barry Ritholtz<\/strong>: So there are some companies that seem to successfully transition between the various stages you\u2019ve identified. How should investors think about these companies? How can they identify when a management team has figured out how to transition from, growth to mature growth?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Aswath Damodaran<\/strong>: I\u2019ll give you two examples. This year (2024) both Google and Facebook initiated dividends for the first time in their history.\u00a0 And I was happy. I own both stocks. \u00a0And the reason I was happy is let\u2019s face Google and Facebook are not young growth companies anymore. They\u2019re trillion dollar companies which are looking at earnings growth in the long term, probably in the high single digits.<\/p>\n<p>And when people look at 8% growth, they say, well, that\u2019s disappointing. You have to recognize you\u2019re a trillion dollar company growing at 8%. That\u2019s a healthy growth rate.\u00a0 And I think what impressed me about both Google and Facebook, and I call them by their old names, not Meta &amp; Alphabet is the management seems to be realistic about where they\u2019re on the life cycle. That\u2019s what paying dividends tells you is we understand we\u2019re no longer young growth companies. We\u2019re more mature and we\u2019re going to behave like more mature companies.<\/p>\n<p>And I think that again reflects what I said earlier. If you act your age, it\u2019s a much, much healthier sign for your company. It doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re not going to grow, but you\u2019re going to grow in a healthy way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Barry Ritholtz<\/strong>: So it sounds like you\u2019re talking about both adaptability and then transformation between stages.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Aswath Damodaran<\/strong>: And a management team that recognizes that, that what you need as a company will shift depending on where you\u2019re in the life cycle. You\u2019re not overreaching.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Barry Ritholtz<\/strong>: So to wrap up, all companies go through corporate life cycles, they\u2019re startups, they grow, they mature, and eventually they decline. Understanding this life cycle, identifying when management is transitioning appropriately, identifying these companies at the right valuation is the key for long term investing in individual companies.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re paying too much for a company in a mature decline or even distress segment, your portfolio is not going to be happy.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Barry Ritholtz. You\u2019ve been listening to Bloomberg\u2019s At The Money.<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">~~~<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><iframe class=\"lazy lazy-hidden\" style=\"width: 100%; max-width: 660px; overflow: hidden; background: transparent;\" data-lazy-type=\"iframe\" data-src=\"https:\/\/embed.podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/masters-in-business\/id730188152\" height=\"450\" frameborder=\"0\" sandbox=\"allow-forms allow-popups allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-storage-access-by-user-activation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation\" data-mce-fragment=\"1\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><noscript><iframe style=\"width: 100%; max-width: 660px; overflow: hidden; background: transparent;\" src=\"https:\/\/embed.podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/masters-in-business\/id730188152\" height=\"450\" frameborder=\"0\" sandbox=\"allow-forms allow-popups allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-storage-access-by-user-activation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation\" data-mce-fragment=\"1\"><\/iframe><\/noscript><\/p>\n<div class=\"printfriendly pf-button pf-button-content pf-alignleft\"><a href=\"#\" rel=\"nofollow\" onclick=\"window.print(); return false;\" title=\"Printer Friendly, PDF &amp; Email\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"lazy lazy-hidden pf-button-img\" data-lazy-type=\"image\" src=\"https:\/\/cdn.printfriendly.com\/buttons\/printfriendly-button.png\" alt=\"Print Friendly, PDF &amp; Email\" style=\"width: 112px;height: 24px;\"\/><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"pf-button-img\" src=\"https:\/\/cdn.printfriendly.com\/buttons\/printfriendly-button.png\" alt=\"Print Friendly, PDF &amp; Email\" style=\"width: 112px;height: 24px;\"\/><\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p><br \/>\n<br \/><a href=\"https:\/\/ritholtz.com\/2024\/08\/atm-lifecycles-of-companies\/\">Source link <\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u00a0 \u00a0 At The Money: At the Money: Learning Lifecycles of Companies. (August 21, 2024) The Magnificent Seven, the Nifty Fifty, FAANG: Each of these were popular groups of companies investors erroneously believed they could \u201cSet &amp; Forget,\u201d put them away forever, and you\u2019re set for life. But as history informs us, the list of [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":62,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-321","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-ekonomika-finansai-bankininkyste"],"aioseo_notices":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/europaskolos.lt\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/321","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/europaskolos.lt\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/europaskolos.lt\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/europaskolos.lt\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/europaskolos.lt\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=321"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/europaskolos.lt\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/321\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/europaskolos.lt\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/62"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/europaskolos.lt\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=321"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/europaskolos.lt\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=321"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/europaskolos.lt\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=321"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}